Vapor Talks #13: victory over death

A conversation about Brian Eno's idea of scenius and Disney fairy tale-themed signalwave

I got hip to victory over death through the YouTuber Pad Chennington, who mentioned the 2024 album Before We Appear in his video about “The Mysterious Music Genre of Signalwave”.

victory over death is a producer from near Detroit, Michigan, who’s been on the forefront of the post-pandemic signalwave movement.

This is a subgenre focused on brief ambient vignettes made out of samples from old media, often pulling from TV broadcasts or radio transmissions. There’s a ghostly, melancholic quality to the style that’s in tune with vaporwave’s throughline of nostalgia and hauntology. victory over death’s music in particular carries a deeply emotional undertone, which you intuitively feel but can never quite pinpoint.

When I reached out to the artist, I was surprised to learn he’s not even as reclusive and shy as I imagined. After our interview, he even sent me a photo, shot by his six-year old daughter, which he allowed me to publish with the transcript.

Read below our conversation about how Brian Eno’s idea of “scenius” applies to vaporwave, and how victory over death came to make experimental, Disney fairy tale-themed signalwave albums, among many other interesting things.

victory over death, photo: artist's daughter (age 6)

Growing up, what kind of music did you hear playing around the house?

My mom and dad had many vinyl records at home that they enjoyed when they were younger, but when they were getting older, they were not so interested in music anymore. I would look through these records as a kid. There was some instrumental piano music from Windham Hill, things like George Winston, some New Age type stuff. I do remember my mom having the Enya tape, it was the big Enya album [Watercolours, ed. note], and I remember listening to that in the car.

My parents were not super musical obsessed people, so there was never one particular type of sound that I always grew up around. It was always very much seeking out music myself, when I got to be of the age where I could have my own CD player or listen to the radio.

When did you start doing that, and what type of music did you discover?

I’m an elder millennial, so my early music experience was still based in physical media and terrestrial radio. I received my first CD player in the mid-90s. I was probably around age 11 or 12. My first music was what any other kids would be listening to at that point, which was pop and dance music. I very quickly discovered that I liked the alternative rock of the time – Green Day, Weezer and Silverchair, stuff like that. Into the teenage years, it just became very typical angsty music, a lot of heavier metal, nothing particularly interesting. It’s probably fairly common for a guy in that era to be listening to that music.

Did you get any musical training and play in bands, or were you more of a casual listener?

I started playing trumpet in fifth grade and played all the way through the end of high school. I was in orchestras and bands up until I went to college. So I had classical music training, and I also played drums in a punk band with my friend and later I played drums and guitar in a post-rock band that was influenced by things like Explosions in the Sky and Mogwai. I actually took lessons on electric bass too, so I played several instruments through those years, and then a little bit beyond. In my adult life, it’s just been software synthesizers. I’ve not played a physical instrument in quite a while.

When did you start producing music on a computer?

I started to dabble with it when I was nearing the end of college, in my early 20s. I’d record guitar and mix it in Cool Edit Pro with samples that I was finding. It was fun, and it was all very bad. That started to become a huge part of my life when I moved into my own apartment after college. I would purchase a copy of Ableton, which is what I still use now, and I’ve worked with it probably almost every day for 15 years. At first I was just making stuff to try it and to experiment, just for myself.

How and when did you first discover vaporwave?

I’m about the same age as Daniel Lopatin – I may be one or two years younger. So when he was releasing the early Oneohtrix Point Never music, that was right around the time when I was discovering avant-garde electronic and ambient music. His album Returnal [Editions Mego, 2010, ed. note] was the one where I first learned about him. It really resonated with me and seemed like something that was almost coming out of my own head in a way, so I connected very strongly with that. Same with the early James Ferraro music and the hypnagogic stuff at the time, that whole era.

When vaporwave came about, which was just a few years later, I was kind of primed to like it. Probably Floral Shoppe, the Vektroid album, was my introduction. I would listen to it when I was out running, and I was just super fascinated by it. It was poppy, but there was also some weird looping going on that I really appreciated.

I was kind of dipping in and out of vaporwave after that and listened to other things, but came back in 2015 for Telepath and Death’s Dynamic Shroud. A year or two later, I dipped out again, listened to other stuff and doing other things in life. You know, I’m living a pretty normal life, having a regular job and a family. I dipped back in around the pandemic era, like I think a lot of people did.

Yeah, the pandemic definitely brought a lot of us back; it was also when the signalwave scene became more of its own thing. Were there certain artists that heavily influenced you going into that direction?

During the pandemic, when I had all this time, I was discovering podcasts like Night Clerk Radio, which introduced me to signalwave as a genre. They were talking about the Infinity Frequencies album Exit Simulation, and the artist T e l e + 1, and an album called Viewers Like You [by Television Archive]. I’d check them out, and I’d not heard anything quite like those yet in vaporwave, so I started to discover more. I discovered the Signalwave Discord server, and the rest is just being introduced to all these different people, going down that rabbithole.

Why I pursued that subgenre in particular is hard to say, but I’ve always liked ambient music, and in particular, I’ve liked the 12k label run by the artist Taylor Deupree. They use a lot of synth pads and the music is very melodic, but there are also lots of sounds in the background that add texture. What I’ve come to understand is that these artifacts of old media in the sound, whether it’s tape hiss or static, add a layer that makes it more sonically interesting to me.

Signalwave can almost be anything. It’s highly experimental and wide open, compared to some other genres of vaporwave. A lot of my weird interests could fit into it pretty well, and people would not be offended or weirded out. I can’t always explain why I do things. I probably realize it later in some ways. I just saw a lot of potential in that more distorted sound, and I felt drawn to it.

What kind of weird interests were you just referring to?

Well, if you look at the approach that I took early in my discography, it was essentially ambient music done in a signalwave style. That was already a little bit different, but I’ve also done four albums now that are focused on a Disney fairy tale theme. I have a young daughter, and I watch movies like Snow White with her, the original one from the late 30s. The ending of the film is kind of ambiguous. You think it’s this happy ending where she is brought back to life by the prince and they go to his castle. But I read it could also be that she’s dead, and this is sort of the afterlife, and this I found very weird and beautiful. A day or two later, I just sat down and started working on this thing. It had nothing to do with anything that I had been doing before, and I didn’t even know what I was really working on. But there it was, and several people liked it and left nice comments.

That’s one example of a strange interest or a different approach. It falls within the signalwave umbrella because it involves samples from old media, but I try to bring it into kind of my own thing. That’s probably true in some ways of a lot of the other albums. I’ve done a few where instead of one sample, I would take multiple samples and put them in different channels, and have the theater bring them in and out. Those types of approaches I have the freedom to do in signalwave, and there seems to be room for it.

How do you determine if one of these conceptual experiments works?

Well, it’s usually just that you have a sound in your head, and you sit down and you’re going to try to find the sound that’s in your head. When you finish it, it never sounds quite exactly like that, but there are some albums that, when you work on them, almost magically fall into place. Other albums feel more like a chore and a struggle, but sometimes you find exactly what you need and it comes together very naturally.

How did the whole victory over death project actually start?

I made this very simple, goofy signalwave project that was based on Southern Christian, Hammond organ-type Baptist samples. “victory over death” is a common Christian expression, and it was actually meant to be funny, light-hearted or kind of silly in the beginning. I released that first album, but then I thought about what else I wanted to try, and I wanted to make an album that had a constant static sound through the whole album. I was modeling it after CT57’s Nuclear Snow, because I really liked how it had this one sweeping static through the bulk of the album, and it felt like one unified piece. I started piecing together these ambient samples, and I realized immediately that it was very different but far more true to me and far more interesting, so I deleted that first album but kept the name. As time went on, I realized this name is great for so many reasons, so it ended up being the right name.

For a while, I stuck with that initial style. Brian Eno said something about limiting yourself or keeping yourself to within certain limitations. In the early days, I was really trying to limit myself to a maximum of two elements besides the static. As time went on, I did not want to repeat myself, so I allowed myself to expand what I was doing and try some different things, try new sample sources, do things in a way that other people were not doing, and let the rest fall into place. There’s an element that runs through all the work that sounds like me, that’s what people tell me, and so I try to stay that way.

You also run another Bandcamp page under the alias forgetting.

As I was constantly creating music, I realized that I could not put everything under the victory over death page. I wanted to try such a wide variety of other things, and so that’s why I created that other page, which has turned into a label for myself. The most successful piece has been this alias called 溶けた壁 (Melted Wall), where I take traditional signalwave sample material like commercials and other old media but find new ways of presenting it, recording live, improvising. That has been something I’ve really enjoyed, and it’s given me another creative outlet. With the quality control on that page, I allow myself to be a little bit lower, have fun and not worry so much. With victory over death, I felt a need to put out things that I 100% believe in.

You did a few interviews with other vaporwave artists for your own newsletter. In one of them, you mention Brian Eno’s idea of “scenius” which emphasizes the power of communities over the genius of single artists. How does that idea relate to signalwave in your opinion?

Specifically related to that discussion, I was thinking of how there was one album called Narvon Nights [by GlenOAX, 2017, ed. note] that was influential to the artist TV2, who made this album 1450kHz at Broken Grove [2024], which then influenced another artist, CT57, to make his own version of the album called Road to Nowhere [2024]. [And all three albums then influenced Magdalene’s 2025 album honeycrisp.lament, ed. note].

Maybe partially to platforms like Discord and Bandcamp, people see these albums and they become inspired, which is not totally a new thing. I just think that these scenes are more close-knit, so when that happens, there can be an innovation in that process, and these albums are hopefully pushing things forward in the scene. I assume that’s how many great things have come out. A Discord server could be similar to a few blocks in New York City where artists are coming together and meeting for coffee, or like the abstract expressionists or some other artistic community that’s bouncing ideas off of each other and then coming up with their own innovations. I could be wrong, but there does seem to be some element of that within vaporwave.

There’s also a fair amount of fragmentation, with subgenres like signalwave and slushwave having their own Discord servers, creating mini-scenes within the wider scene.

Sure, but I actually see a lot of cross-recommendations in those communities. There seem to be certain albums that are widely appreciated by all fans of niche experimental music. For the most part, the scenes are very supportive of each other and people have an open mind. I’m on the Slushwave Discord, and I feel a little bit less a part of that community, simply because of the areas that I work in, but I don’t feel unwelcome over there, and people will occasionally talk about something that I put out, which is nice. I don’t necessarily see them as bubbles. It may be true with some individuals, but I appreciate the open-mindedness.

Barber beats has been getting some dismissive comments from other vaporwave-related communities like signalwave and slushwave though. Which I can partly understand, but I’m also a big fan of barber beats.

That’s true. But I don’t even hear too many dismissive comments. I’m sure barber beats have their own community as well. I’ve never joined that so I have no idea. I know there are mixed feelings about the genre, but there are some albums that I like very much. That was also something that I really enjoyed getting into during the pandemic era. When I discovered it, it was like when I discovered vaporwave for the first time. There’s this mountain of music that I was unfamiliar with, and I have this joy of discovering so many of these albums with all this beautiful artwork. That was exciting, which might seem dorky to some people now, but it was just this big swell where many people appreciated it across the board, and you would like to think that that kind of thing could happen again at some point.

What’s your stance in the other hot topic of the day, generative AI?

My ethics on it are still evolving. First of all, it’s very difficult to respect the companies themselves. They almost seem anti-art or anti everything that’s great about art. But I’m not necessarily anti AI across the board. I’m not repulsed by it. I try to keep an open mind, particularly when it comes to experimental music. There are probably some things that can be done with it in interesting and cool ways. But I am strongly against the constant bulk uploads of AI music that is not touched by humans at all and that is so inoffensive and bland. I think most of us can agree on that.

For younger people, I really think it’s important to learn and to develop taste, skills and knowledge first. My day job is in writing and communications, and I did that work for 15 years without AI. During that time, I was mentored by very smart, talented writers. After leaving the working world for a little bit to focus on raising my daughter, I just recently came back and now, like everybody else, I use AI for certain things. I’ll use it for proofreading. I’ll use it for stuff that I would have used to have to look up on crappy websites. But what I’ve realized is that whenever you use it to do something that you have the ability to do yourself, you lose a little bit of that skill. It’s very sneaky. You don’t realize it, but you are outsourcing your thinking. So I try to catch myself and try to figure something out myself instead first, because I don’t want to lose these skills that I cultivated for my whole life.

When I started using AI, I already had this huge background knowledge, so I can tell if AI spits out something that is terrible or nonsensical or just won’t work. When I think about how that pertains to art, I try to look at it through the same lens. I agree with what Desert Sand Feels Warm At Night said in the interview you did. I think it’s worthwhile learning how to create music on your own first, and build up that above that knowledge. It’s always going to come out in a way that is true to you.

If an interested reader wanted to start diving into your discography now, where would you send them?

Screen Interrogation, which is from 2024, feels like a good representation of the victory over death sound of that era, and it was championed by some other artists like CT57. That was definitely one that seemed effortless when working on it.

From the fairy tale series, Light refracted at the surface of a teardrop, which is a good representation of that mini obsession I had.

And then, eight studies for airwave, which I actually composed myself. This was my first of sample-free signalwave, so it provides some variety. People seem to like that, which was good, because I kind of put myself out there.

Do you want to shout out some other innovative producers from the signalwave community?

I hesitate to say too much about individual artists, because I will leave so many out, and also I am friends with so many of them at this point that I would feel badly about not shouting someone out.

Rather than shout out a particular artist, I want to mention the label Hushtones, which Brickmason runs. I’m always seeing people complaining about vaporwave stagnating, or saying that they wish more artists that could get attention or releases. As far as I can tell, Hushtones is what they’re asking for. It deserves more attention. Just like this label World End Collapse, which put out two of my Melted Wall releases, which is very strange music. To know that these types of releases can get a physical release is really cool. Shout out to all the small labels who are putting out strange things.

Listen to victory over death on Bandcamp

Here are three great vaporwave interviews from his own newsletter:

• Riding with CT57 on the Road to Nowhere

• The “State” of Vaporwave with Florida Rains

• Satellites, resale shops and living rooms: The cozy signal-worlds of TV2

victory over death’s Top 10 Vaporwave Albums

(unranked)

• Infinity Frequencies – Exit Simulation (self-released, 2022)

• Eco Virtual – Atmospheres 1-4 (self-released, 2013)

• Luxury Elite – World Class (Crash Symbols, 2015)

• t e l e p a t h テレパシー能力者 – アマテラス (self-released, 2014)

• desert sand feels warm at night – 夢の砂漠 (dream desert) (Geometric Lullaby, 2022)

• ESIAFI 1 – 电 (TV2, 2022)

• 猫 シ Corp. – News at 11 (self-released, 2016)

• テレヴィジョン – TeleVisions (Dream Corp., 2023)

• Macintosh Plus – Floral Shoppe (Beer On The Rug, 2011)

• 아버지 (Father2006) – Reflection (2016)